tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.comments2023-08-01T20:14:02.890-04:00Thunder SoundsSLWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comBlogger996125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-566872149584143972023-08-01T20:14:02.890-04:002023-08-01T20:14:02.890-04:00You can call it a mystery, paradox or tension but ...You can call it a mystery, paradox or tension but the Bible teaches that God knows all things and that we have free will. The only way they can both be true involves the issue of time and God being outside of time since he created it.<br /><br />Just one of the many great themes we will have to occupy our minds during eternity.<br /><br />Grace and peacePumicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18384572020071079433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-90831317250125770232023-04-04T08:56:42.049-04:002023-04-04T08:56:42.049-04:00I would have put the reasoning of your first scrip...I would have put the reasoning of your first scripture under your second scripture but it would not change the conclusion. Our culture lies and too many who rely on church leaders to do their Bible reading for them embrace the lie.<br /><br />Grace and peacePumicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18384572020071079433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-20332572982772930732020-03-13T15:35:34.029-04:002020-03-13T15:35:34.029-04:00Hello Mayra, welcome to the Sounds. I am with you,...Hello Mayra, welcome to the Sounds. I am with you, I find praise and prayer (conversation/meditation) are the avenues through which the joy of salvation is sustainable and the walk of faith stimulated. Let the world in flights of fancy pursue ephemeral mists, we stretch out for joy unspeakable and full of glory.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-15127548480586268732020-03-13T01:35:12.644-04:002020-03-13T01:35:12.644-04:00Agree. God used King Solomon, a man who sought all...Agree. God used King Solomon, a man who sought all forms of worldly pleasures and whose wealth is still considered great, to remind us that our purpose in this life is to worship God Ecclesiastes 4. <br /><br />Like Solomon, the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4, also reminds Christ followers that in this life the only thing really worth striving for is to reverently worship God. Be content in Christ Jesus. Ecclesiastes 12:13. Through out the bible it tells us our purpose in this life is to seek God through Christ Jesus, build our relationship with God by following His commandments, and reverently worship Him. <br /><br />Life is a vapor compared to eternity. What we do and what we go through will not be remembered unless our story is retold generation after generation. But even then our story will get twisted down the line and interpreted into something we weren't. <br /><br />As Christians, why do we worry? Why do we submit to the world's view of success, fulfillment, and happiness? <br /><br />In health we learn that happiness is a battle of the mind and we have to power to get there but how true is that? High profiled people have shown us that money and fame don't bring happiness. <br /><br />If our purpose in life is to revere God then striving to find happiness without Him is truly vanity.Mayrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01549875513569953447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-87926337567245328752018-04-25T00:16:27.497-04:002018-04-25T00:16:27.497-04:00It is an interesting perspective, I must admit, bu...It is an interesting perspective, I must admit, but it doesn't hold up for me because it actually speaks of four years, and I can't see how that fits into anything prophesied about Israel or historical about Israel and Christ Jesus. If this occurred in his third year of ministry, there is no fourth, so what does the warning mean? Even if this is similar to the three days and nights of Jonah, was Israel cut off after that year? The earliest church was all Jewish, and stayed predominately Jewish for maybe 20 years. The Apostle Paul was going to the Jew first throughout his ministry, so I wonder in what way was Israel cut off when that fourth year elapsed. They certainly didn't repent, even to this day they reject God because they reject Messiah. So even though there are some intriguing symbolic connections one could make, and seem justified in doing so, on closer examination the proposed symbolic connections don't pan out. Why? Because it's a parable and was never intended to bear such meaning.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-30542458078360722752018-04-24T22:52:44.953-04:002018-04-24T22:52:44.953-04:00Thanks. I didn't have strong views about the f...Thanks. I didn't have strong views about the fig tree in the Olivet discourse. I do think that Jesus was saying in Luke 13 that the Jewish nation had one more year to respond to him.bethyadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990677679970591625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-15812463142640782332018-04-23T10:39:27.201-04:002018-04-23T10:39:27.201-04:00Hosea 9 deals with finding first figs, not fig tre...Hosea 9 deals with <i>finding first figs</i>, not fig trees per se, and does so in a very clear and limited way that metaphorically describes God's feelings toward Israel before they turned to Baal-peor. It does not establish a symbolic precedent that would suggest that fig trees can be expected to refer to Israel throughout scripture. <br /><br />Jeremiah 24 also deals with figs, not fig trees, although I suppose that could possibly be inferred from v. 6. Regardless, the use of figs in this passage is focused upon the quality of God's discerning judgment or election, the good and bad figs being merely the imagery used to vividly communicate the concept. I think it's clear that the temporal scope of the prophecy only extends to the exiles who began to return from Babylon some 70 years later (especially in light of chapter 25) rather than the distant eschatological future. So I see nothing here that would lead me to believe there was an intent by the Holy Spirit to establish a reliable symbolic precedent that fig trees symbolize Israel.<br /><br />Luke 13 is the best case for making the symbolic claim, but it still fails because that was not the intent of using the parable. Jesus was addressing oblivious self-righteousness (see vs. 1-5) through the parable, not making a symbolic statement about Israel. He does indirectly refer to Israel, but only in that his hearers were Israelites and his audience is likened to a fig tree. The point of the parable was that everyone (in his audience <i>and in general</i> for that matter) was unrighteous/unfaithful (fruitless) in the sight of God and was in danger of being cut off without remedy. Self-righteousness blinds people (Israelites in the case of the immediate audience) to their need for repentance before God, who may already have them on borrowed time quite unaware to them. When readers try to force extensive and exhaustive symbolism upon the parable concerning Christ and Israel, the point the parable was actually making is entirely lost, and clarity is replaced by uncertainty and confusion. <br /><br />When this kind of error is carried into interpreting the Parable of the Fig Tree in the Olivet Discourse, the result is going from the clarity of seeing the parable as I have suggested in my post, to endless speculation about what a generation is, how long a generation is, and deflecting from the straightforwardness of the signs (like the Abomination of Desolation) to something nebulous like what does it mean that Israel is blossoming (was it 1917 or 1948 or 1967 or not even yet, etc.).<br />SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-4173135443991168652018-04-21T02:37:50.579-04:002018-04-21T02:37:50.579-04:00What about Hosea 9 where fathers (in Israel) are l...What about Hosea 9 where fathers (in Israel) are likened to figs?<br /><br />Or Jeremiah 24 where Israelite exiles are likened to good figs and the remnant to bad figs?<br /><br />And does Jesus reference Israel when he tells the parable of the unfruitful fig tree in Luke 13?bethyadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990677679970591625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-27747590384619112962018-03-31T18:04:40.438-04:002018-03-31T18:04:40.438-04:00I always tell people it will be easy to know becau...I always tell people it will be easy to know because we will be in the air and rising. Until that happens I will figure it is just global warming or cooling, whichever is in that week.<br /><br />He is risen.<br /><br />Grace and peacePumicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18384572020071079433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-17474931915188773882016-06-07T22:20:55.971-04:002016-06-07T22:20:55.971-04:00Even if the Romans passage puts things in those te...Even if the Romans passage puts things in those terms, if it is given universally the effect would be no different then what you have generally seen. If it is given to the narrower audience (i.e. the born again) then there would be real pregnancy in that pause.<br /><br />If I'm understanding what you're saying, I think I'm in substantial agreement with you. But even if man has that capacity innately, I suppose that is a gift in it's own right as is life itself. Regardless, I'm fully on board as seeing faith as a response to God from us.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-33394549102961589632016-06-05T17:36:40.942-04:002016-06-05T17:36:40.942-04:00I generally see faith as something that men have. ...I generally see faith as something that men have. I don't think that Ephesians says that faith is a gift. So God creates in a us a capacity to love, and trust. But those things come from us (in response to God).<br /><br />Though your reference to Romans 12:3 gives me pause.bethyadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990677679970591625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-47752834241150580662016-05-14T11:25:35.075-04:002016-05-14T11:25:35.075-04:00Time to read a little today. You have an interest...Time to read a little today. You have an interesting point in the indication that this state was not ecstatic but matter-of-fact. I think that is much more beneficial if this is an indication of what eternity will be like. I am one of those people who can go to a baseball game and only stand up to get a hot dog or take a seventh inning stretch. <br /><br />Grace and peace.Pumicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18384572020071079433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-34443107766435399172016-03-26T10:05:53.138-04:002016-03-26T10:05:53.138-04:00It's surprising how out in the open it all is....It's surprising how out in the open it all is. When Hitler took power, Mein Kampf had been published years before and had spelled out exactly what he was intending to do. It didn't set off the alarms sense should have dictated. Similarly, in this day, the world seems blind to its danger, and will be when it matters most. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-23687888306506562022016-03-11T18:42:33.313-05:002016-03-11T18:42:33.313-05:00I agree that God knew of the possibility of evil, ...I agree that God knew of the possibility of evil, in a general sense, i.e. that creatures with freewill would exercise it in opposition to his will, within himself apart from creation. It is what the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Eden suggests. Your illustration using Adam is a good one.<br /><br />I see God coming to know evil thoroughly once creation was in place, and he observed the depths of it in creation omnisciently and omnitemporally. What I don't see, for instance, is God contemplating the rape and murder of a three year old within himself apart from the existence of creation. Why would that thought be in his pure mind? If such a thought was in his mind apart from creation, then there is no way to disprove that it exists in creation because it reflects the way God is. If that was the case, then it would have been in him first, and what resulted could be seen as a mere reflection of God.<br /><br />Furthermore, and maybe more to the point, I think the scriptures paint the picture of God as sincerely, honestly dismayed and repulsed by what arose within creation as a result of freewill; e.g. Genesis 6:5-7, Jeremiah 19:4-6. Those passages, among others, are often seen through the lens of anthropomorphizing, but I think the testimony of scripture hangs together better if they are taken at face. There were things that arose in creation that were never in the thoughts of God apart from creation, and so his disgust, dismay, and regret were actual and sincere.<br /><br />The bottom line in all of this: Christian theologians are too dependent upon philosophers, particularly ancient Greek philosophers, in fashioning their conceptions of the nature and attributes of God. Dependence of the scriptures leads to different conclusions on these matters.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-6880507601577779442016-03-11T03:00:10.155-05:002016-03-11T03:00:10.155-05:00I suspect God could have known about evil the way ...I suspect God could have known about evil the way Adam knew about death when he was commanded not to eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam know death experientially after he sinned, but not beforehand.<br /><br />I think God probably knew evil at least in this way, though I suspect he knows every contingent possibility.bethyadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990677679970591625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-22866454169842269242016-03-06T22:55:16.058-05:002016-03-06T22:55:16.058-05:00Welcome to the Sound oldmom. Let me suggest you re...Welcome to the Sound oldmom. Let me suggest you read this from Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians:<br /><br />For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. (14:2)<br /><br />For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. (14:14-15)<br /><br />Your description of tongues as babble is mere supposition. Tongues are not meant to be understood by speaker or hearer and so appear as babble, precisely as described not only in 1 Corinthians but also throughout Isaiah. Paul thought such "babble" was worthwhile. I'm afraid your arguments are merely prejudicial and without substance. SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-20686270081643107842016-03-06T19:59:51.423-05:002016-03-06T19:59:51.423-05:00Don't forget too that Paul was an educated man...Don't forget too that Paul was an educated man who did speak several different languages. He was Roman, Hebrew (Jew), he was a Pharisee and educated in the temple, he spoke and wrote Greek which is why he went into Greece to teach (where Corinth was located). <br /><br />And what do we know about Corinth? It was a port city that received people from all over who spoke in many other languages who came to buy and sell. Which explains why to the church of Corinth it was important to receive the gifts of "various tongues!"<br /><br />So instead of reading between the lines and making up something that sounds "cool," why not read it as it is actually written...straight forward without any secrets hidden within. The Word of God is not meant to be confusing or a mystery, but it's not really open to interpretation either. It's all right there for you to read for yourself. It really is quite plainly stated. Just bear in mind too, that this was written for God's people in the middle east and it comes to us through grace. Don't use replacement theology to make things fit, use these scriptures as they were intended to be right from the get go.oldmomfromMIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14374435344503709299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-67028582749881537832016-03-06T19:59:36.634-05:002016-03-06T19:59:36.634-05:00As with it is with all human beings, saying and te...As with it is with all human beings, saying and teaching something that isn't even there occurs often and is the case with speaking in tongues. The Bible is it's own witness and there is NOT a single time that Yeshua taught anything remotely close to what Pentecostal preachers teach on this issue. In fact Paul also didn't teach this either. When asked directly how to pray, we all know that Yeshua taught, what we lovingly call, "The Lord's Prayer." In fact, the Word of God warns us NOT to "...babble like the pagans do (some versions of the Bible say hypocrites/Gentiles)with empty phrases." And Shavout (or Pentecost), where the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples was for the strict purpose of causing them to speak in other languages so that the people who were there to celebrate Shavout would be able to understand the message of salvation in their own languages. <br /><br />People argue that Paul was the one who taught about speaking in tongues as a babbling language because he spoke of "...speaking in the language of men and angels..." but where does that say "babbling?" It doesn't! So what is "...the language of men and angels?" It is the language of worshipping our God. It is the language that God provided for us to do that. How do I know? Remember, the Bible is it's own witness...so here goes...what language did Mary hear when she was told that she would give birth to the Son of God? What language did Joseph hear when he was told to stay with Mary? What language did the shepherds hear when they were told of the birth of the Savior? What language did Moses hear when God spoke to him...or any of the other many examples in the Word of God for that matter? Tell me even just one time where Yeshua taught babbling in prayer is a prayer language? In fact there is no place in the Bible that teaches this at all. Let's go back to Paul, where all of the human misinterpretation begins...let's clear this up once and for all: 1 Corinthians 12:1 1Now concerninga spiritual gifts,b brothers,c I do not want you to be uninformed. 2You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.<br /><br />What does Paul say here? "Various kinds of tongues" which means what? Not babbling...various is the key to answer this question. If you were looking for a heavenly language, it would be ONE language! Various tongues means exactly that, various tongues or languages! Just as happened on Shavout for the purpose of teaching all over the world for people to understand the message of salvation.oldmomfromMIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14374435344503709299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-70840059691099278572015-11-27T10:58:13.737-05:002015-11-27T10:58:13.737-05:00Thank you Josh for taking the time to interact.
O...Thank you Josh for taking the time to interact.<br /><br />Of course I don't see that I'm making God's holiness greater than he is, but instead understanding his holiness in the purity which is its essence and seeing it within the framework of the oneness of God. God is not made greater by making him divided, which is what I perceive your thoughts suggest rather than do mine.<br /><br />I am not greater than God by being able to contemplate evil but lesser. I cannot reach the purity of his thoughts, but he can observe the depravity of mine.<br /><br />I do not see at all how my view on omnitemporality removes God's timelessness. Time is created, God is not. Without creation, time would not be known by God, for there would be nothing to know.<br /><br />I do not see myself as dividing God, but your perspective (granted,it is very limited in the small space afforded) as doing precisely that, and within himself, essentially. Evil and good cannot come from the same fountain. It's not dividing God to recognize that evil does not come from God.<br /><br />I must admit I don't begin to understand your comment about mutual exclusivity.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-37765910812772403342015-11-27T10:16:52.748-05:002015-11-27T10:16:52.748-05:00I'll end my contributions to the discussion by...I'll end my contributions to the discussion by saying that you seem to have a pretty small view of God, if you say he cannot even imagine evil while concurrently having no inclination or desire (thus, 'ability') to cause or perform evil. You make God's holiness greater than God by doing so. Can you think about evil without performing or intending it? Then you are greater than God according to your logic.<br /><br />Also, of course omnitemporality is creation oriented, but your logic that the observation "cannot occur until there is something in time to observe" removes God's timelessness and puts him into time. <br /><br />By dividing God's attributes and making them mutually exclusive, you diminish God, whereas "The Lord is one." I pray that you continue to struggle through these thoughts of yours, but that as you do you won't let them diminish God's glory or attributes in your life.josh.gaudreauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413604433657534217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-90137711765663257352015-11-27T09:09:53.269-05:002015-11-27T09:09:53.269-05:00How can one differentiate "thoughts about evi...How can one differentiate "thoughts about evil" from "evil thoughts"? There would be no difference at all in a pristine environment, such as God in himself apart from all that is created. If God had thoughts about evil when there was no evil (i.e. before creation), then in himself he has a dark side capable of imagining evil and which <i>he</i> cannot act upon and must classify or distinguish within himself as against himself. The one thing that God could not know in himself (i.e. in his essence) is evil or he'd be a house divided against itself.<br /><br />Omnitemporality, by necessity, is the creation oriented perspective of God. In himself, God is without time, whereas omnitemporality speaks to his relation to the created dimension of time. Omniscience has two aspects: what God knows in himself, and what God knows given his decision to create. Omnitemporal Omniscience posits that God knew all concerning creation (including evil) when he finished actualizing the worlds. Omnitemporal Observation cannot occur until there is something in time to observe. I suppose I take exception to the description "from all time".SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-789582865059521082015-11-27T08:16:57.289-05:002015-11-27T08:16:57.289-05:00Of course God doesn't "think evil thought...Of course God doesn't "think evil thoughts" but he does "think thoughts about evil" so I don't see why his omniscience would need be limited.<br /><br />And, is it fair/possible/realistic to separate God's omni-temporality from his omniscience? He has observed already all evilness in the world and minds of people, but he has observed all of it always from all time; therefore it could be said to be part of his 'essence' in the same way omnipotence and omnipresence (including omni-temporality) are.josh.gaudreauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413604433657534217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-67869480568747899622015-10-31T09:54:28.529-04:002015-10-31T09:54:28.529-04:00Nice to hear from you Pumice. Once a person has bo...Nice to hear from you Pumice. Once a person has bought into the resurrection as historical fact, as faith must, how can he or she rebury Jesus? I think apostasy must be rooted in disappointment that is more meaningful to the apostate than the promise of things to come or the facts that are. It's incomprehensible, perhaps, because it's so personal and emotional and unreasonable.SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-63215836917600544312015-10-30T10:14:24.856-04:002015-10-30T10:14:24.856-04:00I like the first sentence of the last paragraph. ...I like the first sentence of the last paragraph. I also like the distinction between "losing" our salvation and "being on a path that could lead to your destruction as a believer." We always have the freedom to walk away. At the same time I can't comprehend wanting to.<br /><br />Grace and peacePumicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18384572020071079433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8886567613905490071.post-78893705605933422372015-09-25T11:01:38.023-04:002015-09-25T11:01:38.023-04:00I think there is a distinction between interventio...I think there is a distinction between intervention and creation. God rested or ceased creating at the end of the creation week (all things he wanted in being were in being at that point as seen omnisciently and omnitemporally). An intervention here and there (or more often as the case may be) of divine power throughout history would be seen omnitemporally and so known at once, but would be shepherding rather than creating, strictly speaking. Shepherding is both reactive and proactive, whereas creation is active and inventive.<br /><br />SLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.com